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TE

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Reply with quote  #46 
Did you guys find the story odd by Spinelli from Fincher Doc. refering to the guy who was jelous of Spinelli and knocked on his door around 1am (or so); they proceeded to get into a fight over Ferrin??? or another girl - then ALA shows up out of knowhere and takes care of the other guy that was fighting w/Spinelli....I want to say this was after the "painting party" if my memory serves me correct...just very odd
MissouriMule

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Reply with quote  #47 
My recollection of the event with Spinelli was that he and the first guy were punching one another when ALA burst through his bedroom door "imploding" was the word used. I came away from the impression that everything came to a halt and I'm not entirely certain that it was any more than to relate this was the first time that Spinelli had any contact with him. And then a decade later ALA comes to him offering up this deal to become a contract killer for him being that Spinelli was evidently Mafia connected. Spinelli said he thought ALA was wired and didn't really want to say more. Then ALA offered up the deal about the cab driver. After it happened, then ALA went back to Spinelli who told him to beat it. He didn't say anything about it until he himself was locked up in the slammer for some home break-ins nearly 20 years later and he was trying to work a deal through his attorney. He conceded he was into "criminal activities" at the time. So the motive is entirely open to question as to whether he is telling the truth. All I can say is that Spinelli seemed credible to me. Bawart confirms that Spinelli was a "small time hood" or something to that effect. I'm much inclined to believe Bawart's account.
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Richard
TE

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Reply with quote  #48 
Ok, thanks, remembered it also that way - was this after the "painting" party that is highly questioned?
Weird how ALA seemed to have "stalked" Spinelli to his house, implode the door, and hold the other guy in a very "precarious" place to subdue him......also, didnt ALA have a large knife w/him?
MissouriMule

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Reply with quote  #49 
According to Cheney (or his friend) ALA was always armed and I suspect he had knives as well. When he died his house had all kinds of weapons including pipe bombs but nothing that would directly link him to Zodiac. I'd be surprised if he didn't have a knife with him. If I have an opportunity to see Cheney's interview again I will get the exact language that was used.
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DiamondD

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Reply with quote  #50 
Can anyone establish if Stine was somehow involved in the drug community, if he was that would throw a new spin on things now wouldn't it.
goldeneagle

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Reply with quote  #51 
I think the main reason zodiac killed Paul Stine was for the media attention. A cab driver being killed wouldnt be big time news in a city that has so many murders, but since the murder was committed by zodiac, and he went the extra mile and included the piece of shirt, this was a huge story. And nobody enjoyed seeing their name in the paper more then zodiac did. By committing a murder in an affluent area in a major city zodiac got the big media attention he wanted.
Winnie

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Reply with quote  #52 
I know that Jack had it in for cab drivers... When he was in the military, one of his jobs was to run messages back and forth for Naval officers. The motor-scooter he rode was equipped with special lights to signal that he was coming thru... People were supposed to yield to this, but there was an incident that Jack had mentioned to me where a taxi-cab did not oblige...

Moreover, Stine was a member of a Motorcycle club, as I recall reading in Graysmith's "Unmasked", and so I can see where the "oxymoron" of cabdriver---motorcycle rider becomes a possible connection, or motive to murder Stine.

Just a couple of facts that may help firm up a connection between Zodiac, Jack, and Paul Stine's murder.

Winnie :)

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Link

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Reply with quote  #53 
One thing about the Stine murder that has always puzzled me is: Why use a gun? Why not a knife? Much less noise, no gun flash at night, no residue, no left over shell casing or bullet. We also know that Z had a knife on hand used to cut the shirt.

Any thoughts?

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JCloser

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Reply with quote  #54 
Because of the proximity of the crime. Since Z was cowardly--he often executed his victims with no warning--he needed to make absolutely sure that no physical confrontation would take place. Z the gunman, I believe--check my spreadsheet--was always reported as a small man between 5'8" to 5'9" 170 to 180. I think he was scared that he could be overpowered by males. This is why he used the gun, he gave Stein zero chance of defending himself. Really quite cowardly in my opinion, he already had an enormous advantage in that he was armed with a firearm, but still gave Stein no chance in the exchange. A person would have a greater chance of surviving and being capable of defending themselves in a knife attack. It's all about the heavos!
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Link

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Reply with quote  #55 
I hear ya JC, but Z fired only one shot if im not mistaken. If Z were that intimidated by someone then why only one shot? Plus I would say that if you slit someones throat, and maybe a few stabs, there wouldnt be much of a fight, Right? Also Z took the time to cut the shirt, steal the keys and wallet, and wipe down the car. I am in no way saying that Z was not cowardly, but all that seems pretty brave to me.
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JCloser

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Reply with quote  #56 


The reason it was only 1 shot is because Stein never saw it coming. 1 shot is all it takes when you put a gun barrel to the back of someone's head and pull the trigger (ask President Lincoln about this one). Under the 2 scenarios, the gun offers less risk. He could kill Stein, or if Stein was very very lucky, only turn him into a veg. Either way Stein would offer no physical threat to Z, and he would never have a chance to defend himself. No exposure to risk by Z, again cowardly. On the other hand, to use a knife to cut Stein's throat would require Z to reach further to reach the front of Steins throat. This would 1) require that Z expose himself more to a physical confrontation and 2) increase the possibility of a physical confrontation in that it requires more time and is more likely--due to its clumsy nature--to notify Stein that he was under attack. Nah I don't find anything-- after the cowardly attack--brave on Z's part. It is kind of like those great Bruce Lee movies when the bad guy kills someone without honor and everyone turns their back to him, showing the dishonor of his cowardly act. I'm turning my back on Z, very cowardly! Z has offended the Dragon!

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goldeneagle

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Reply with quote  #57 
I think you're right J. By using a gun zodiac virtually eliminated any chance of stine putting up a fight. And the shirt was actually found to be torn, not cut.
DiamondD

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Reply with quote  #58 
One thing to consider, when a person kills you have to analyze the way it is performed, and in what manor it is performed. For example the use of a knife, this is a very up close and personal method of killing, you virtually have to touch the person in order to inflict pain, the stab wounds are they deep and multiple, usually indicating intense anger or passion, or are they shallow and few, less anger more torturous. Now take a gun killing, usually very impersonal, the killer is able to stand at a distance and inflict, but, there is an exception to that and that is, if you analyze how the person was shot, where they shot in the eye, in the mouth, in the head and all was at close range, that could be an indication of a personalized attack or it may not.
Link

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Reply with quote  #59 
The point is though Golden and JC, A gun shot makes so much noise, and im sure a big flash at night. Why would Z take a risk like that? Golden, even if the shirt was torn and not cut, Z still took the time to get it. Right? As well as the keys and wallet.

Sorry if I offended THE DRAGON JC!!! lol.

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Link

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Reply with quote  #60 
HI DiamondD! I could not agree more. As I stated before in an earlier post, a knife is so much more personal than a gun. How many wounds and the location on the victim/s speaks volumes.
Shepard stabbed 10 times total- 5 in the front 5 in the back. Hartnell 6 times in the front.

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