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catseye

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Reply with quote  #46 
How many inches are the keys? Just absolutely curious about them now but this is your project so if you don't want to clarify, I'd understand. My 1962 Dodge Polara Custom 880 keys weren't that big. Nor were keys to 1969 Ford Galaxy. Just an inch 1/2 or so long.
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Kaufman Solved Zodiac Killer 2010, FBI Agrees w/ Barto reports 2010. Cases will close 2011 & ciphers/letters decodings will lock the doors!
trustno1

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Reply with quote  #47 
Ms. Barto, in your post #57, you pointed out some of the same thoughts I have always had regarding the so called "expertise" needed to do the bisection of Ms. Short's body. To have some "experts" say that only a highly skilled surgeon could have been capable of making the precision cuts is, I believe, incorrect. As you wrote about your experience in cutting up a chicken, you merely feel around on the joint you are preparing to cut then, make the cut. I don't recall if the autopsy report on Ms. Short stated where the incisions to her body began or, which direction they proceeded. It probably doesn't matter, however, it might have some value. I'm not trying to be too gruesome but, it would seem that if one were cutting front-to-back, it would be relatively easy to cut through the soft tissue (flesh and internal organs) until you reached the spine. By feeling around and/or seeing (the body was drained of blood), I believe the bisection of the spine could have been accomplished with a sharp pocket knife or paring knife. Anyone who would have experience cutting up or butchering deer, other wild game or, their own livestock would be capable of making any variety of cuts. As far as the spine is concerned, if you look at pictures of the spine of different animals, whether human or not, you can see they are very similar. Thanks for making that post since, it kind of provided me with a prologue for this post. Take care.
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TerryB

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Reply with quote  #48 
I've read John Gilmore's book "Severed" which is about the Black Dahlia case. His prime suspect as you may know is Jack A Wilson. I wasn't convinced by the evidence presented that Wilson was the killer.

Also at about that time there was another young girl murder victim by the name of Georgette Bauerdorf in LA, she was an oil heiress socialite. The Hearst people suppressed the news coverage as much as they could. The killing had the same "MO" as they say, her body was found in her bath tub, she had been strangled etc. another nasty piece of work.

Another couple of points about Elizabeth Short is that her body was positioned so that the morning sunlight beamed through her pelvis indicating the killer was mindful of where the angle and alignment of the Sun would be when her body was discovered, her upper torso reminds me of the skeleton pose in the Zodiac Halloween card, it seems to me that other people on this board pointed that out also.

Gilmore's book is well worth reading, as I recall he doesn't declare that J.A. Wilson did it, he just presents the evidence he has and gives his opinion.

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catseye

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Reply with quote  #49 
Nanette, thanks for the details. I know the subjects on the keys are off topic but they do indirectly link back to what Tarrance may have done in the past. That said... When 10 yr old Jacob Wetterling of St. Cloud or St Joseph MN went missing (1989?) somebody said something about a lock box described eeriely close to what you mention about the keys and box. It was supposed to be a green army lock box. Way off topic but it's believed person was just passing through and kidnapped him at night near a store.
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Kaufman Solved Zodiac Killer 2010, FBI Agrees w/ Barto reports 2010. Cases will close 2011 & ciphers/letters decodings will lock the doors!
TerryB

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Reply with quote  #50 
Hi Nanette, no I meant William Randolph Hearst's newspaper, Patty's grandfather's paper, this murder happened in late 1944. I read the book over a year ago and I'd have to review things to be accurate. There are some morgue photos of her in the book, very heartbreaking stuff. You might have it more correct regarding the alignment of E Short's corpse, those photos are in the book as well, very graphic photos, I can only now view them without wincing, still it pisses me off, we share the planet with some really messed up people.

I thought the evidence against Dr Hodel being the killer is weak also, I read his son's book a long time ago and while Dr Hodel wasn't very nice there wasn't any evidence of his guilt.

This subject may be directly linked to the Black Dahlia case, check it out.

Fingerprints were recovered from a light bulb that was partially unscrewed at the Bauerdorf crime scene, the prints were good but didn't match JA Wilson. There are free articles to read on the net. Wikipedia has an article on her.

I'll bet JT's fingerprints from pre 1970 are still on something he used to own or somewhere he lived. Like maybe some of his ham radio gear.

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thewraith

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Reply with quote  #51 
could this be the mysterious keys from the 1990 christmas card where there are keys and a little pencil or light as i recall.interesting stuff keep up the good work nat.
thewraith

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Reply with quote  #52 
could this be the mysterious keys from the 1990 christmas card where there are keys and a little pencil or light as i recall.interesting stuff keep up the good work nat.
TerryB

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Reply with quote  #53 
Sorry Nanette, I misread your post, yes as in Patty Hearst.

I can't recall if the two woman roomed together but I don't think so. The prime person of interest the police were seeking was never located, he was described as being swarthy, I've rarely ever heard the term swarthy before, it might have a double meaning in it's usage. I'll do some research but the two woman might have frequented the same canteen dance. It seems to me that I read that JT was described as swarthy. In any event this person of interest was very interested in Georgette but she didn't want much to do with this wannabe suitor.


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TerryB

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Reply with quote  #54 
I took the term "swarthy" to be a description of the person's behavior in the few examples I've seen it used. I did some more checking up on the term and one source described it also as evil, in other words dark behavior. I think the term is too ambiguous. One literary example; "Those swarthy Germans", what the source is I don't know.

I got to thinking about the business of Hearst suppressing the coverage of the Bauerdorf murder, that's Gilmore's take on the situation. I think that many times in that era that if a person was a public figure or wannabe as E Short was that they would have been "fair game" for extra media coverage verses a private person like Georgette Bauerdorf.

Also it seems to me that I've read that old criminal cases are archived in Sacramento, one might be able to get access to these records by perfectly legal means, like a freedom of information approach, perhaps a law student could help. How do guys like Gilmore get the crime scene photos? I think the public has a right to access to old cold cases.

From what I understand about DNA tests is...is that they can easily exclude a suspect but it's much more difficult to include a suspect especially on old DNA samples... which would explain why it's taking so long for the results. If you followed the OJ trial as I did the expert witness had to cite statistics as to the odds of the DNA match belonging to someone other that the victims or suspect but those odds were almost astronomical in relative terms of size.

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trustno1

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Reply with quote  #55 
I'm in the process of reading a book called "Killers At Large" written by Nigel Cawthorne. In the chapter about The Cleveland Torso Killer, he writes about the murder of Georgette Bauerdorf as well as Maoma Ridings. He writes about how criminologist William T. Rasmussen has tied the Torso killings, the Ridings and Bauerdorf murders, the Lipstick murders and, the Black Dahlia case together. Rasmussen has a website regarding his theory however, I don't really have an opinion about it. In the paragraph or so about the Bauerdorf murder, Cawthorne does not mention anything about whether she had a roommate or not. In a previous post (it may have been in a different thread), I mentioned that officials in the Cleveland and Pittsburgh areas, as well as Rasmussen, were investigating a Jack Anderson Wilson since, they thought they could connect him to all of these crimes. According to this book, a Los Angeles detective named John St John was about to arrest Mr. Wilson for the Black Dahlia case but, before he could, Mr. Wilson died in a fire in a Los Angeles hotel in 1982. I do need to point out that this book is filled with mistakes. I didn't realize this until I read the chapter about the Zodiac.To give you an example, the author writes that Paul Stine was shot with the same 22 cal. gun that was used in the Faraday/Jensen murder, as well as writing that the San Francisco PD were looking at an Andy Walker as a suspect. We all know that Andrew Todd Walker was merely a pseudonym used by Graysmith in place of an actual suspect's name. There are more errors in this chapter, but since just these two are so inaccurate, it probably indicates how inaccurate the rest of the book is.
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TerryB

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Reply with quote  #56 
trustno1, All good points, I didn't detect that Gilmore embellished or made things up but I can't say for sure, he just lays it all out for the reader. He also writes about those other crimes.

I'm gonna read the book again esp about the G Bauerdorf case so it's more in the front of my mind.

Actual police reports are typically the most accurate but not always because they rely on witnesses that use ambiguous word's like "swarthy" or wake up in the middle of a dream and the dream gets mixed with the facts.

Sorry but I just had to pick on that term "swarthy" again, don't get me wrong I like some big and special words when they are used properly, save time and clarify things.

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TerryB

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Reply with quote  #57 
I've read some more articles on the Bauerdorf murder and realized that the subject is full of misinformation especially concerning evidence, the Hollywood canteen was closed after Thanksgiving of 1945 before E Short came to LA and according to other web site articles all the known suspects were located and cleared.

The Wikipedia article said her stolen car was a Pontiac but posted web photos are of an Oldsmobile. So far I only found info in the Gilmore book that claims that matching fingerprints were found on the light bulb and on the car which was allegedly found near the area of where BD's corpse was found more than two years later.

JT's prints must have been left somewhere he didn't want them to be otherwise why would he go through the pain and trouble of burning them off, moreover he'd of had to really burn the hell out of his fingers of erase them. I realize his fingerprints might not tie him to any of the Zodiac killings but might put him at other crime scenes.

I know that handwriting evidence has always been held in high regard and is credible science and in this case there are many examples to work with.

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TerryB

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Reply with quote  #58 
Hi Nanette, as a matter of fact, the Ferrin police reports reveal that they did find latent prints on the Zodiac letter but couldn't match to any of their know suspects at that time.

I realize that many of you veteran members have known that fact for quite some time, thanks for your patience with me.

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catseye

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Reply with quote  #59 
NanetteB, take pride in your achievements as what we do here and have done in the last year, helps create a pathway to justice served. Although JT died and was denied his right to a fair trial by a jury of his peers, in death just knowing the truth about him and what led to these circumstances we now deal with posthumousy, again, lights the way to justice. People will not want to see another decades old cold case like this and what happens here, I believe helps circumvent the red tape that brought us to this MB. Even if it does help in preventing just one case going cold, it's all worth the efforts done. Those who want all the cases closed like Black Dahlia that Jack seems to be the best suspect in, will see the truth thanks to you and Dennis and the quiet workings of those in LE & those unsung heroes behind the scenes. Keep going both of you...I'll be there somewhere behind you with whatever support I can give.
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Kaufman Solved Zodiac Killer 2010, FBI Agrees w/ Barto reports 2010. Cases will close 2011 & ciphers/letters decodings will lock the doors!
catseye

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Reply with quote  #60 
Dennis, off topic to get your attention: I ran into 1 of Lake Berryessa 1969 witnesses and I'm trying to get his full story. I believe he was 1 of the 3 people: 1 man w/2 boys in a field. He says he saw ZK run right in front of him, looked apx 40. LE kept some things out of reports just in case arrests and/or trial at some point. The 3 names were never publically, disclosed.
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Kaufman Solved Zodiac Killer 2010, FBI Agrees w/ Barto reports 2010. Cases will close 2011 & ciphers/letters decodings will lock the doors!
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