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donum5719

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Reply with quote  #16 
LtColumbo,

if i recall correctly Dennis doesnnt say JT hopped a freight train to escape from the murder spree, but rather while JT and his gf were on a moonshine run and they got ambushed by authorities, his gf gets killed and Jack escapes via the train etc - Jack is said to come back later to Texarkana apparently for a revenge spree known as the Phantom murders - at least thats what I remember reading/hearing - without double checking!
holden_mate

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Reply with quote  #17 
I have seen the movie "Legends of the Fall" and that was the first thing that came to my mind when I heard about the prohibition scene.

In case you have not seen this one, I suggest you do. Some people find it an epic but maybe because they are Americans and can relate to the Historical aspects. In any case it is a sad but nice movie.

BTW the movie does have its shares of Horrors. Cutting the heart out of own brother's heart, collecting scalps of enemy soldiers, bear hunting etc etc.
LtColumbo

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Reply with quote  #18 
<donum5719>
Had to go back to check. Here's the quote from breif bio of Jack:
"...over the next couple of months Jack would carry out what would become known as the 'Texarkana Phantom Murders'. Jack was almost apprehended for those murders but managed to escape by jumping on to a moving train. He said he had to jump off the top of a boxcar into grass burrs and gravel [while] the train was still moving..." In the transcripts of phone conversations JT alludes to jumping off a train into grass burrs and gravel but does not [at that time] connect the incident with the Texarkana crime spree.

PLEASE NOTE: I'm not suggesting DK is lying. I believe JT said it. I merely wonder out loud if JT was lying (if he was Z or not).

I have known some lonely older people to tell tall tales -even some tales that make them out the villian -in order to get attention.
One fellow told me a story about how he had, back in his HS days, fended off a group of toughs using a bunch of pop cans in his backpack as a weapon. The problem was that this was a close approximation of a scene in a movie that we'd watched together a few days earlier. This same man regaled the church youth group w/ stories of his big wave riding days at Mavericks. Problem was, I was at that time trying to teach him to surf and he couldn't even stand up on a 10' 'log' on 2' waves! Another, older gent, whom I knew from the American Legion, repeated to me an amusing anecdote about my father in WWII that I'd told to him only the day before. He'd changed it slightly so he could claim it had happened to him and he'd completely forgotten where he'd heard the story to begin with! Heck, he'd probably convinced himself it really did happen to him. Of course, I didn't call any of them on it.

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donum5719

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Reply with quote  #19 
LtColombo

You're right, I checked the 'Jacks Life doc' the other day too - he was running from the murders & thats when he jumped on the train..my memory didnt serve me well then!!! My apologies
yogaman1919

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by clamper1004
I found a website with these murders on it. The drawing they had of the Killer was wearing a hood kind of Like LB and it gave me chills. This description came from the first victims who happen to survive. I'll try and find this site again.


i know this has nothing to do with the case. but that hood that the Arkansas moonlight murders was also the inspiration for the hood jason voorhees wore in friday the 13th, before he got the goalie mask. just a bit of "light hearted trivia" :)

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clamper1004

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Reply with quote  #21 
Thanks for the tid bit of trivia, Yogaman. You never know that may come in handy. It is a spooky resemblance though.
BARman

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman1919
Quote:
Originally Posted by clamper1004
I found a website with these murders on it. The drawing they had of the Killer was wearing a hood kind of Like LB and it gave me chills. This description came from the first victims who happen to survive. I'll try and find this site again.


i know this has nothing to do with the case. but that hood that the Arkansas moonlight murders was also the inspiration for the hood jason voorhees wore in friday the 13th, before he got the goalie mask. just a bit of "light hearted trivia" :)


http://thm-a04.yimg.com/image/f06d785c2fe9d1f2

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fuwe.vg%2F2008%2F01%2F26%2Fthe-town-that-dreaded-sundown%2F&sl=de&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

The Zodiac hood, the Phantom hood, along with everything else. Too much says this is the same guy.
Tamoose53

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Reply with quote  #23 
Wow BARman, that is completely creepy! Dang!
If you're not a detective, you should be!
BARman

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Reply with quote  #24 
Now consider this.

In DK's recorded calls and transcripts, JT says "some of the mean stuff happened before I went into the service, or even before I married my first wife".

Now, go here http://www.geocities.com/txkphantom/index2.html
"Most of the women victims were raped or sexually abused but in the 1940s that was a subject not mentioned in the newspapers."

The Z cases didn't involve rape or sexual assault but, "some of the mean stuff" happened BEFORE 1947 when JT went into the service, or even before JT married his first wife on March 15, 1946.

1942 - 1944, JT hitches rides on trains and rides all over the country doing odd jobs here and there. 28 different states.

1944, While working odd jobs JT electrocutes and kills about 50 pigs in NM and flees.

1944, JT moves to OK and meets the woman who would later become his first wife.

1944, JT moves to AR and engages in criminal activity.

1944, JT's GF is shot and killed during a shoot out with Texarkana Police.

1944 - February 22 1946, JT goes to CA to be with the woman he would eventually marry. Then returns to TX 'to see his mother'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_Killer

[The "mean stuff" that happened before JT married his first wife:]

February 23 1946, JT pistol whips two people near Texarkana.

February 23 1946, PK attacks 2 but flees when another car approaches. These are the witnesses who gave the description of Phantom's hood.

Between 2/24 and 3/14, JT goes to CA with his mother.

March 15, JT marries his first wife

Between 3/16 and 3/22, JT returns to TX with his mother.

[The "mean stuff" that happened before JT went into the service:]

March 23, PK kills 2.

April 14, PK kills 2.

May 4, PK kills 1, wounds 1.

May 6, Man found stabbed to death on train tracks outside Texarkana.

Between 5/7/46 and 1947, JT returns to his wife in CA.

1947 - 1955, JT serves in 3 branches of the military.
(How many different locations? Are there any unsolved homicides in these locations during the same time JT was there? More specifically, crimes occurring on dates near the time JT would have been leaving for someplace else?)

April 1954 - October 1954, JT is stationed on Treasure Island, and sees the movie 'Charlie Chan at Treasure Island'. Through escapism, JT identifies with the villain in this movie.

Sometime after this JT begins referring to his criminal self as "The Zodiac". Similar to the way some people refer to having an 'evil twin' who gets them in trouble.

1955, JT is stationed in Japan, he marries a Japanese woman and gets sent back to the US without notice.

??? October 30 1966, JT goes "Zodiac" on Devil's Night in Riverside CA. ???
catseye

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Reply with quote  #25 
BARman, looks like you see the amazing synopsis of Jack Tarrance. Amazing!
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BARman

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Reply with quote  #26 
It makes sense too why he would leave quickly and get married before returning to carry out his revenge. In case he wound up getting killed. He was 18 and being a stupid romantic.

The Riverside letters were signed with a Zorro style Z, could this have been an early attempt by JT to associate a symbol with his Z identity?

It also wouldn't surprise me if JT had the Phantom hood stashed away someplace similar to how DK found it. Then, upon JT making the connection between his alias and the symbol on Zodiac wristwatches, JT (or Doris?) simply cross-stiched the hypnosis symbol onto the PK hood.

The hood was obviously a souvenir of sorts, it had special meaning to JT, or he wouldn't have hid it away for DK to find years later. This makes for a good argument both the PK and Z hood might be one and the same.

Not to make light of the situation, but...
You could take this stuff and make the 'Forrest Gump' of serial killer movies.
DiamondD

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Reply with quote  #27 
Barman,

You have managed to summarize and associate the TA murders to JT is a very succinct way. Some of us have been toying with this for quite some time now, well done.
DD

BARman

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Reply with quote  #28 
Thanks, DD.

It would also be interesting to see JT's military record, namely the circumstances surrounding him being removed from Japan in 1955.

Its common knowledge the military tries to keep criminal stuff internal and functions under their own justice system of sorts. Even more so back in this day.

It seems very likely there could have been situations happening near JT's base in Japan too. Rather than risk bad publicity and damaging foreign relations, the military dealt with it internally by (abruptly and without notice) removing the people they were suspicious of. JT being one of them.

Instead of opening a messy can of worms they swept it under the rug.

Thats reading into a lot of things on my part, but given the history. Past behavior is the best indication of furture behavior.
DiamondD

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Reply with quote  #29 
Barman

would you happen to know the law according to the freedom of information act in regards to retrieving JT's military records as it pertains to him being in Japan and why he left.
DD
BARman

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Reply with quote  #30 
No, sorry. From everything I'm aware of, internal military investigations are pretty much sealed and off limits to everyone except the military, FBI, BCA, etc.
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