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TE

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Posts: 143
Reply with quote  #16 
Interesting indeed Lt Columbo - you seem to be well versed on this. The Ultimate Evil book spoke of a Manson II that assisted in the SOS shootings....any idea who that may have been from the LA area?
JCloser

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Posts: 452
Reply with quote  #17 
Crowley is on the Sgt Pepper album, but so are a couple dozen others--none with any greater distinction than another--but yes he is there. I do not think there is any connection with the Beatles and Crowley. I know a shit load about the Beatles and I'll take their word for it. They said they put all chosen for the album because they were all famous or notorious. That's all, nothing more. Now, Jimmy Page, that is a different story!
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LtColumbo

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Reply with quote  #18 
JCloser,
Sure, Crowley is just one guy among many (although given a prominent spot). But the horns of mendes sign in the publicity shots for Yellow Submarine (and used by the animated Lennon in the movie) is unmistakable and no innocent accident. It would be years before this hand signal came to also mean 'rock on'. Just like the 'bigger than Jesus' comment being simply misunderstood. What Lennon actually said in context was: "Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I am right and will be proved right... we're bigger than Jesus right now." [SF Chronicle interview, April 13, 1966, pg. 26] Lennon back tracked in the fire storm of controversy that followed and claimed (dishonestly) that he was taken out of context and everyone buys it because they love the Beatles. Heck, I love the Beatles musically, but the truth is that they were an immature, confused bunch who came to love playing Guru and who dabbled in a lot of things they didn't understand and one of those things was (briefly) satanism -like many other rock stars of their day.

TE,
No idea.

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holden_mate

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Posts: 70
Reply with quote  #19 
Hi LtColumbo!

You surely know a lot. I found the rest on this

http://kimmyjustlikeesther.multiply.com/journal/item/33/The_Beatles...What_you_didnt_know_about_them_Devout_Satanist

BTW the song "Back In The U.S.S.R" is hardly communist. And AFAIK they had not gone to USSR by then.

But the rest of other things seems to be right on target.
LtColumbo

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Reply with quote  #20 
Holden Mate,

The problem with that site as a source is that it is an overtly Christian site! Christians have been systematically marginalized by the popular media for over thirty years! It's hard for the [onetime] counter-culture to be in control and still paint themselves as the underdog rebels but they manage to pull it off. Most people, when offered a philosophy of extreme hedonism will dismiss any inconvenient facts -espeacially if they involve their heroes and most espeacially if they come from those 'awful close-minded fanatical Christians'.

There are pleanty of documentaries produced by the status quo for the status quo that are filled with former hippies like Peter Coyote and Wavy Gravy wistfully remembering how wonderful it all was in the Haight and how awful the 'establishment' was before they 'enlightened' the world. Check out the one currently on VH1 entitled 'The Drug Years'. They fawn over Owsley Stanley as a folk hero giving away LSD and never mention that he became rich selling it or his association with the viloent Brotherhood of Eternal Love. And, of course, no mention of how the violent crime rate doubled between 1962 & 1969 -and never rebounded to as low as it was when the evil 'establishment' was in charge. These documentaries are produced by ex-hippies -no wonder they're all slanted and carefully edited apologetics of the sixties.

But all this, interesting as it may be, begins to wander too far afield. Oh- I can't resist just one more: Alfred Kinsey was a close friend and associate of Kenneth Anger and made a pilgrimage to Crowley's Abbey of Thelema. John D. Rockafeller funded the Kinsey operation just as he did AA in the early years...

Okay- back to catching Z.

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holden_mate

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Posts: 70
Reply with quote  #21 
I realised the Christian bias to that site but I don't belong to any religions and in fact I don't want to start one at all.

But I found another site with a totally different cover for the Yellow Submarine. I could find only 2 similarities 1) Beatles
2) Two horn sign of the Ram.

I am not from UK/USA and had just limited exposure to the western things. But it is hard to overlook the sign.

The site is

http://www.boskowan.com/www/jirka/beatles/covers.htm

The same cover can also be seen on ebay and about.com
JCloser

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Posts: 452
Reply with quote  #22 
Columbo, I think your detective skills have temporarily left you. I'm not sure how much you actually know about the Beatles and John Lennon in particular, but I think you are way way off the mark. Having a casual knowledge of an article here or a news clip there does not give one an accurate picture of the truth. Again, a prominent position on the album? Can't agree with you there. John Lennon quote "if you talk about destruction don't you know that you can count me out" John Lennon also wrote "Imagine" where he talks about no heaven, but if you really knew about Lennon you'd know that he actually did believe in god. Was George Harrison singing about My sweet lord Satan? I also believe Lennon was named man of the decade for the 70s for his work for peace. Peace, Love, Non Violence........not really satanic values. The satanic angle might have merit as far as the Z case goes, but it is a stretch to try and tie it to the Beatles and John Lennon. Like McCartney said "Some People Want To Fill The World With Silly Love Songs......and what's wrong with that?
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holden_mate

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Reply with quote  #23 
Most people have multiple lives or at least skeltons in cupboard. For celebrities, even the skeltons found big mansions to live in for the rest of the life (in full public view). That hand sign cannot be ignored, though I can consider it as one of the errors one does at certain points in life. As for the other statements, lots of people cover up.
JoAnneMB1

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Posts: 148
Reply with quote  #24 
I think it's more like likely the hand sign in the drawing was meant to represent the sign language representation for "Love" or "I love you".

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holden_mate

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Reply with quote  #25 
Beatles used the horns sign. The other sign is different if we are to believe this site (ignore the name for 1 minute)

http://www.conspiracyworld.com/index0123.htm

BTW if you goto the next site then you would believe that everyone is a satanist, even though he is not in any way linked with Abrahamic religions at all. Some minutes of the day even I think I am a satanist!

Yasser Arafat's photo barely makes the grade. The only people who have made the sign clearly are the musical types.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/signs_of_satan.htm
JoAnneMB1

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LtColumbo
those 'awful close-minded fanatical Christians'


The site holden_mate mentions (www.jesus-is-savior.com) is a perfect example why we non-believers view many Christians as awful, close-minded and fanatical. Some examples from the site:

Did [Helen] Keller purposely design the deaf's "I love you" sign to be such a remarkable imitation of the classic sign of Satan? Was Keller saying, basically, "I love you, Devil?"

Why is the [George W.] Bush family so obsessed with the signal, displaying it dozens of times during both the inauguration and the evening ball?

Believe it or not! Here's [Christian rocker] Amy Grant flashing the "Satanic salute." Amy deliberately flashes the "Satanic salute" at least two separate times, displaying it for several seconds. Amy is promoting Satan.


If we are to believe these whack-jobs, then even our monetary system has been corrupted by Satan:

There is a small owl just to the left of the "1" which appears on the upper right hand corner of the Dollar Bill. The owl is strongly associated with the occult (e.g., Bohemian grove). There is definitely an inseparable common denominator between the two groups: Satanism.

The site goes on to show pictures of various people flashing the so-called "sign of Satan": Prez and First Lady George and Laura Bush, V.P. Dick Cheney, Former V.P. Dan Quayle, French President Nicholas Sarcozy, Actress Liz Taylor, Britain's Prince William, and even (gasp!) Spiderman.

C'mon people -- I know we're all fairly intelligent here. Tell me you don't buy into this b.s.

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holden_mate

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Posts: 70
Reply with quote  #27 
Actually that is a holy sign in Buddhism.

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/mudra.html

Also there are only so many signs you can make with one hand. I cannot lift the 4th finger without lifting the third one.

That site also calls Helen Keller a communist (though I would call her a socialist) and also practising witchcraft and what not.

Communists did not believe in any religion so that idea is a bit shaky!
LtColumbo

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Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #28 
I honestly did not mean to send the discussion in this direction. But here we are.

Christians and Satanists both have unreasonable stereotypes of each other. And, of course, activists -of all sub-species -get carried away. Also, celebrity has come to carry God -or at least avatar- status in modern times. Many people don't even realize how much their hero worship has crossed over into worship. This is often true with Lennon, Morrison, Ozzy, Kobain, et al. Anything said against them is usually met with some variance of sticking the fingers in the ears and saying 'LA LA LA -I can't hear you- LA LA LA'.

The sign used by Lennon is clearly the 'horns of mendes'. It's not like it's a random isolated act taken out of context -taken in context with his many statements about bringing down Christianity - well, heck, if the resulting cognitive dissonance is too much then believe 'what thou wilst'. And all truth is merely subjective in the modern era, right? And, after all, if Christianity really is a destructive force of close-minded bigots and needs to be destroyed by the 'enlightened' new age -then why even protest?
Okay. Let's forget about Lennon and the sainted fab four.

Crowley was the counter culture before the counter culture existed. A century before Haight Ashbury he rebelled against his Victorian world and wrote it all down in a manifesto. IT IS THE NATURE OF YOUTH TO REBEL! When the post-war self-appointed inteligencia came along (as they do in every generation) they were natuarally attracted to his 'liberating' philosophy. Where else would they turn? Islam? Zorastrianism? Makes for some pretty dull love-ins! But hey! Do what ever you want? Expand your mind with drugs? No strict sexual mores? Confront the establishment?

Crowley said American youth would make his ideas mainstream. Forget Lennon. But... Kinsey, Wilson, Anger, Levay, Huxley, Leary, Owsley, The Doors, The Dead, Zep, Tull, The Stones, Manson, Beausileil...


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JCloser

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Reply with quote  #29 
Ok, let me start by saying that I am Christian. However anyone can call themselves a Christian. As far as the link posted by Holden? I do not need to hear someones' interpretation of the motives of someone else's behavior. What the hell qualifies them to be the end all on someone else's behavior....the arrogance!

Columbo, I don't disagree with you on Christianity, Satanism, all I'm saying is that I don't think you have linked the Beatles or Lennon to satanism in anyway. Here is a link to Sgt Peppers album. You keep saying that Crowley is featured prominently. Can anyone who does not know what Crowley looks like pick him out of the crowd. They should be able to since "he is featured prominently" I think I'll take the Beatles at their word on this one. They merely wanted to feature famous and infamous people on the album cover, that's all. As far as Lennon's "we are bigger than Jesus quote" I take no offense to it. It might even have been true. Let me quote a famous theology professor I know "being a christian does not mean you have to turn your brain off" The guy was giving his opinion and the fanatical hard core non thinking Christians got bent out of shape. What if I say "Charles Darwin's ideas pose a serious threat to Christianity" I'm I being any less of a Christian? It is freaking true! By admitting that the statement is correct I have not admitted that I agree with Darwin's theory. Come on, Calling Lennon or the Beatles satanist is a stretch at best. If you are going to accuse them then you better really bring the evidence. Let me quote an Icon of Science Carl Sagan "extraordinary claims requires extra ordinary evidence"

You also mention Haight Ashbury (nor sure how you spell it), let me tell you what George Harrison said about it. I heard George himself say that while in the Beatles he once took a trip by himself to visit the scene there. Once there he was completely disappointed. Once he was reunited with Lennon he told an inquisitive Lennon that the place was a total waste of time. To quote him "there was nothing there but a bunch of dirty hippies just getting stoned out of their minds, there was no pursuit of anything spiritual really going on" This was George Harrison's own words. Satanist.......not!

Please show me what you are talking about on the Sgt Pepper Album. I don't see the horn of Mendes you kept mentioning. I know all about Crowley and what he was about. I don't disagree with you on your definition of Crowley, just your lumping the Beatles and Lennon in there with him.







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holden_mate

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quoting LtColumbo

"But the horns of mendes sign in the publicity shots for
Yellow Submarine (and used by the animated Lennon in the
movie) is unmistakable and no innocent accident."

There are two different versions of the Yellow Submarine (LP?) I posted a while back and that hand sign is there for sure in both.


http://mybeatlescollection.net/catalog1.html . There are more hand signs there.

And there is a BLUE MEANIE as Zodiac wrote in one of his letters.


http://www.elcycle.org/reviews/music/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/sgt-pepper.jpg


( When Pepperland is threatened by the Blue Meanies and its inhabitants are turned into colorless statues, Captain Fred climbs into a yellow submarine and sets off to get help)

I can also see a woman (Diana Dors?) in the image posted by Jcloser. But could be a Rusalka also if you really stretch it.


There is an image of the Indian goddess Laxmi, which is wrong because musicians worship another goddess, Saraswati, goddess of Music (With the instrument http://cgi.ebay.com/AARTI_W0QQitemZ150304297646 ).

According to Brahma Vaivarta Purana 2.6.13-95 Vishnu has three wives, who constantly quarrel with each other, so that eventually, he keeps only Lakshmi, giving Ganga to Shiva and Saraswati to Brahma. So this is out of ordinary ( http://www.gits4u.com/religion/sarswati.htm )


I also see Jinnah (Father of Pakistan) hiding behind Diana Dors. Father of India's image was removed (according to wikipedia)
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