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jon55

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Reply with quote  #76 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtieschick
Tamoose, than you for your replay to my post. What you say makes sense. One thing I do have to comment on though: If people do come in here and disagree with various points, theories, etc., isn't that necessary in a way? If a theory or piece of evidence is good, shouldn't it be able to stand up under scrutiny, or alternate theories? If we all agreed all the time, I think we might get lazy or complacent.


be very boring as well........lol

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Tamoose53

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Reply with quote  #77 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky80
Nobody, least of all the FBI, has validated Nanette Barto's opinion. This is just one more of the unfounded claims of FBI confirmation that has surfaced on this board. Completely unfounded, most likely fabricated, yet thrown around by you folks as if gospel. Bullshit claims of FBI concurrence have done more harm to this investigation than anything and there are two main culprits here. Go ahead and give us another cloak and dagger response, it is expected.

Barman. I posted my experience in general terms in the original handwriting threads. My experience came during just over 2 decades working for the United States Navy. I was not a handwriting expert, but was asked on occasion to offer opinions concerning questioned documents in a non-judicial setting. I am now employed by a private research company and under contract to a different government agency.

I did not attempt to tear down this investigation. In fact my opinion made clear that the handwriting did not exclude Jack Tarrance as the Zodiac Killer, only that there was no conclusive match. But it is obvious that none of you want to discuss reality, you are content with accepting Nanette Barto's very amateurish analysis and opinion based on her rather shaky qualifications. Good luck with that.

Jon, I don't know what more to tell you. The documents Barto and Kaufman use to show these alterations are all third generation or worse reproductions. The only crime in this conspiracy theory appears to be Barto and Kaufman libeling as many people as possible.

Tamoose, it is really hard to address a lack wit like you. You have hitched your wagon to Barto and soon will find that she is a sinking stone and not a shooting star. Your rather less than inspiring attempts at poetry are interesting in a 3rd grade drop out sort of way, keep trying, and replace the drool cup a little more often.

If anyone has any interest in actual discussion, go ahead and PM me, since this thread has been hi-jacked by those interested in burying any opinion not in line with Barto's.

Rick


A lack wit??? OK, anywho..Yeah that wasn't one of my better poems, I admit, but I only had about 2 minutes to address your last pompous ass post...

You don't like being called out Ricky...What, you expect everyone here to just foam at the mouth over your handwriting analysis?? You pop on here out of nowhere, call NB names, call her an amatuer, and pontificate like the blow hard you are...

Were you in Navy Junior ROTC?? Is that where you got skills Ricky??

"Hitched my wagon to Barto and will soon find that a sinking stone"...Wow Ricky, you must either be with the FBI or blowing someone who works their....you definitely have the inside scoop eh??

You are as I said, a pompous ass, arrogant,egotistical,swollen headed, conceited, swaggering fool with a self exaggerated opinion of your own importance,..... pretty much to the point of illness, Ricky!

Pleasae Ricky, get back on your ROTC tug boat and take your "a's" with ya....

Oh and BTW, I don't use a drool cup, yet anyways, and I'm a 11th grade drop out Ricky....thank you very much...
jon55

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Reply with quote  #78 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky80

There is an ongoing investigation into falsified evidence, but it has nothing to do with claimed alterations that you and Nanette Barto have made.

Rick



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky80
Nobody, least of all the FBI, has validated Nanette Barto's opinion. This is just one more of the unfounded claims of FBI confirmation that has surfaced on this board. Completely unfounded, most likely fabricated, yet thrown around by you folks as if gospel. Bullshit claims of FBI concurrence have done more harm to this investigation than anything and there are two main culprits here. Go ahead and give us another cloak and dagger response, it is expected.


As Skeptic has already pointed out this is the pot calling the kettle black and this goes along with making claims that you have inside info when I have no way to verify. I do not know if I am one of the "two main culprits" or not......I have pointed out some scenarios in which Dennis's claims would make perfect sense........but in the end I am taking his word on what the FBI has confirmed or not......I do think he has more weight being in a public position as it were than you do being in an anonymous position.....I do not fault you for remaining anonymous its just you have to offer alot more proof to compensate for that very fact........no one said life would be fair. Also it is a fair point that no matter who you are and what games you may or may not be playing we can look at your analysis to see what we will see.......I know that I was being a bit silly with my comment on the "d" but look at it and comment whether it looks similar to me is pretty much what I am limited to. I do pick up on the terminology and methodology somewhat but I have no intention of pretending to dissect the writing in a professional way.......it would be disingenuous at best. My experience in this field is about 2 months of looking at it online........so I am a babe in the woods. I do feel a little more comfortable with changes in the documents due to reproduction and what have you........having played with several graphic proggys in the last 15 years or so and to that end I cannot see what could have changed the "a" in that manner.....would you please explain how an artifact changes the shape of a letter........also one question.......do you have better copies of the letters to work with?



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scarlett

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Reply with quote  #79 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy54
Profiler:
Quote:
Who cares about Ricky80, no offense Ricky, I would like to know the real identity of Jimmy54.


My name is Dirk Diggler.


Now THAT...if funny!
Tamoose53

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Reply with quote  #80 
No more name calling from me...my apologies to Ricky80..even though I don't agree, I can respond differently...
Profiler

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Reply with quote  #81 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlett
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy54
Profiler:
Quote:
Who cares about Ricky80, no offense Ricky, I would like to know the real identity of Jimmy54.


My name is Dirk Diggler.


Now THAT...if funny!


Funny like ha ha, or funny like queer?
scarlett

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Reply with quote  #82 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Profiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlett
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy54
Profiler:
Quote:
Who cares about Ricky80, no offense Ricky, I would like to know the real identity of Jimmy54.


My name is Dirk Diggler.


Now THAT...if funny!


Funny like ha ha, or funny like queer?


Funny like ha ha....(Maybe you didn't see Boogie Nights?)
Profiler

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Reply with quote  #83 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Profiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlett
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy54
Profiler:
Quote:
Who cares about Ricky80, no offense Ricky, I would like to know the real identity of Jimmy54.


My name is Dirk Diggler.


Now THAT...if funny!


Funny like ha ha, or funny like queer?


Funny like ha ha....(Maybe you didn't see Boogie Nights?)


Maybe you didnt see Slingblade? It was a joke.
jon55

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Reply with quote  #84 
Hey Ricky...........I know there was alot going on the first couple of times I asked these questions so I will ask them again......btw.......I do know that you have said that the "a" was changed by an artifact due to primitive reproduction methods however I do not think you have explained exactly how this changes the shape of a letter so radically........with this in mind here are my 3 questions

1. How would an artifact.....resizing....overpixilating..etc.......change the shape of a letter?

2. Why were all the other letters left relatively unscathed by the processes that changed the letter "a" ?

3. Do you have access to higher quality scans or even originals?


Thanks for your time........I know that the letter "a" was a minor point in your report but it seems rather important to me. If and when I have time I do plan on going through both reports (yours and Nanette's) side by side with the letters but as I told you before I am new to this so that may not prove much one way or the other.

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Ricky80

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Reply with quote  #85 
Jon,

I don't see any change in shape of the character.

When I talk about artifacts, I am talking mostly about stray marks left on the page or removed from the page by the copying process. The marks that Ms. Barto has called evidence of changes to the shape of the "a" are thos artifacts. I did exactly what she claims to have done - made transparencies of the old and new copies of the documents and compared them - the shape of the "a" does not change.

I analyzed 376 lower case "a" in seven accepted Zodiac documents that were available in high resolution. Size and construction was consistent throughout all of the Zodiac documents.

Zodiac lower case "a" construction: Entry stroke begins at top of bowl, looping left and returning to entry point, creating a flat right hand slanted, slightly "squashed" bowl. The exit stroke begins at or very near beginning of entry stroke angling back to left along the bowl and then down or slightly right to form a small serif. The entry and exit stroke appear to be formed as a single fluid stroke with no dwell at any point.

Tarrance lower case "a" construction: This roman style printed "a" is formed of three strokes with no pen lifts. The entry stroke moves from left to right forming a concave hook, without lifting a downward stroke is made to the base line, the exit stroke angles up and to left and loops back to end at or near beginning of exit stroke to form a tear drop shaped bowl. There appears to be moderate to long dwell times at almost every point in every stroke of this character.

A close look at the bowls of both the supposedly altered and unaltered characters, shows that they are constructed identically, and in the Zodiac method. This on fact negates the entire alteration theory, but I think adding some history to the theory and how it has evolved might help to convince you as well.

I talk about the "a"-hole theory (cute name someone else gave it), in my report:

2         An Independent Examination
2.1         Analyzing the Genesis of the Altered “a” Theory.
“The letter "a" is what Jack tried to disguise, but on occasion he forgot and wrote it like he did on the Zodiac letters:” This “expert” piece of analysis is how we are introduced to the following document:



This document, which appears on Dennis Kaufman’s web site, seems to be the inspiration for the alteration theory, which Mr. Kaufman formally introduces us to as the “Have the Zodiac letters been altered” thread on his message board in March of 2008.

In the document there are two distinct versions of the lower case “a”. A close examination of the document, however, shows that there are at least two authors contributing to this document. This document contains two or more distinct versions of the lower case “a”, the upper case “D”, numbers (2, 3, 7, 9), lower case “d”, and upper case “B”. There are also two very distinct date representations, as well as a mix of cursive and printed writing.

        Handwriting is a product of the motor systems control over movements of the arm and fingers. The information required in producing these complex movements stem from 'generalized motor programs' or motor memories within the brain. During the comparison of handwriting samples, the examiner is effectively studying the product of motor memories executed by the writer(s) in authoring a sample. In order for the comparison process to proceed the handwriting must be the product of at least grossly similar motor memories such that the same characters and forms of characters are being compared.

        Mr. Kaufman’s statement that Jack Tarrance “forgot” and wrote his lower case “a” in the manner that he did in his Zodiac writings, is refuted on at least one level by accepted norms in handwriting analysis and more importantly by common sense. First, the “Zodiac”-style lower case “a” in this document is written in cursive, in conjunction with other cursive characters, while the “Jack”-style (or Roman) lower case “a” is printed in conjunction with other printed characters.

We generally learn our printing and cursive writing at different times and through different methods. What this means, is our motor memories are developed independently for both our printing and cursive. There are definitely overlaps in our motor memories, evidenced by people who construct letters the same in both printing and cursive script. However, if Mr. Kaufman’s suggestion is to be believed, it would have to be proven by an example of Jack constructing a “Zodiac a” in conjunction with printed characters. Unfortunately, at least for Dennis Kaufman, this conjunction has never been conclusively shown.

And finally I will give you a link to a great discussion Chris Yarbrough posted to his site about the artifacts of reproduction.

Rick
dennislkaufman

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Reply with quote  #86 
Ricky states,

Quote:
In the document there are two distinct versions of the lower case “a”. A close examination of the document, however, shows that there are at least two authors contributing to this document.


Well Ricky if you honestly believe that there are two different authors that contributed to the above document, you aren't worth the time of day. That document was authored by Jack Tarrance, no one else contributed to it at all! Further more Chris Yarbrough is a complete joke, and if he really believed my story was bogus, he wouldn't spend so much time trying to discredit me. The excuses you two have came up with as to the alteration of the letter "a" are pathetic. Are you really that ignorant? Or are you trying to protect the scum behind this? What kind of excuse can you come up with for the SFPD not cooperating with the FBI? While your at it maybe you can explain to everyone why the SFPD would cooperate with a disbarred attorney and whacko like Deborah Perez? Yet refuse to even respond to other police agencies...
jon55

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Reply with quote  #87 
We will have to see if I am reading you right first........I dont have a lot of time tonight as I am trying to fix something on the phone......if I dont have to go into work I will try to do this better later but for now the short version.

You are saying that in the first line of the document that someone else wrote "Dad" and then Jack wrote "John Walker Tarrance born 1909" then the other person wrote "age 89" ? I hope that is correct otherwise I am just wasting time. Ok first I am astounded by the difference in ages but that is beside the point.

The real question is why would someone write a hand written document that way?.......you have one explanation for why it looks like that.......let me give you another.......oh yeah Dennis already took mine....but to refresh the person who wrote this could have enjoyed writing in different ways he could have forgot or he could have just consider this a clever trait of his. I do this on occasion myself I almost always mix cursive and print the only exception would be something that needed to be professional.........you argue that the motor systems override when we write........if he grew up using different forms then he would have the motor systems for all his styles.........you seem to assume that every one of us is goverened by the same rules.......it is not the case with any other talent we may posess.
To use a different example much has been made that Jack could have never covered up his southeren drawl.........these ppl apperently have never seen an impersonator.........the guys that do all the voices.
In closing there is a document posted on the board I think you know which one and I dont have time to go look but if you want to convince me I think we need to start with that one. It definatly shows 2 distictly different "a's" from the same z document and so far I have not heard an explination that I personally can accept for that.

One word about Chris I did scan over his article and will read it in detail soon but one thing caught my eye.
quote"If the FBI truly accepts these findings, that does not bode well for the forensic capabilities of the agency. I’ll accept that they may be looking at these images. They might even humor Ms. Barto a bit. However, I strongly believe the FBI has come too far in their forensic capability to accept these findings to any serious degree." unquote

While he may or may not be right in his theory this tells me all I need to know about his intelligence level. The FBI is top notch when it comes forensic capabilities and they do not know how to humor a person............if he has researched all these cases as he has said.........what on earth would cause him to make such a statement.

A little beside the point I know but I just couldnt let it pass.





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jon55

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Reply with quote  #88 
ok I have a little time now......the document I was refering to is the first link on the homepage.....view the alterations
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jon55

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Reply with quote  #89 
quote by Ricky80 as shown in his post above "A close look at the bowls of both the supposedly altered and unaltered characters, shows that they are constructed identically, and in the Zodiac method."

Well done you have proved Dennis point for him........he was not saying that this document was altered he was saying that Jack wrote part of it in the zodiac method just as you so succinctly stated yourself..........just in your case you assume a different author.

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jon55

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Reply with quote  #90 
And..............in the document above to my untrained eye it looks like 3 different styles........look at how he writes Tarrance.......the first a is capital the second one is lower roman case.

Then go to the second line.....Ina Flova Barnett.......both the n's are capital........then go to the third line to the word .....taken.....the n is lower case that loops up at the end it almost looks capital but it is not.....look closely.

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