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TerryB

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Posts: 925
Reply with quote  #16 
Nanette, I can see why your irked, JohnnyK hasn't acknowledged any of the points made regarding the known facts and he hasn't studied things enough to espouse a "theory" to begin with.

I can tell by the posting times that you didn't get much sleep, I don't think that sixtieschick meant any harm but I wanna remind her that Hartnell said the killer had reddish brown hair that he saw under the hood, the photo of Denny showed that he had dark hair.

Nanette, I hope you're successful in kicking the nicotine habit, I've never been a smoker but I know it's a tough habit to break. A friend of mine was able to beat it with the patch system. Will power...will power...will power!

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sixtieschick

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Posts: 246
Reply with quote  #17 
Nanette, just because I post links to the actual police reports and documents posted at other sites does not mean I agree with what the people who run those sites have to say. I post such links to provide evidence from police reports that all members here can refer to when reading my posts and the comments or points I make in my posts. If these reports were posted at some neutral site, I would post links from there, but as far as I know, such a neutral site does not exist. Catseye got her image of the Donna Lass reward Poster from Voigt's site, so why is it wrong for me to post links to police reports? Those are factual documents that help us understand the case.
Johnny_K

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Posts: 12
Reply with quote  #18 
Ok, first and foremost Nanette- good luck kicking the cigs. Seriously. I broke a 14-year pack-a-day habit in January, 2006. Took me a month, I used smokeless to deal with the nicotine cravings, and it was still one of the toughest months of my life. I gave up smokeless this March, took me two days and some chewing gum. It’s not the nicotine that makes it rough, it’s the habit. You can do it, and if you need any advice, feel free to PM me. I mean that 100%.

OK, now back to some murders and such. I’m going to differentiate between speculation and fact. Speculation- no matter how deeply believed on this board- is still speculation. I’ll truncate some of the longer quotes for ease of reading, but will not make anything out of context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
A. Handwriting is JT's and I can't tell you how many times I have heard I can write just like!!!! Nobody can write just like anyone.


Not arguing this point at all. This is speculation on my part. As I told TerryB, “In fact, we both agree that Jack and Denny were at the site, and that both knew exactly what was going down. We just disagree on who actually did the stabbing.” I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that Jack was taking Denny under his wing, and breaking in the new generation.

Kind of like a sick family business, as it were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
B. A hood was worn in Texarkana murders - JohnnyB's theories about a hood at LB don't add up.


Johnny_K, not JohnnyB. And while a hood was worn in the Texarkana murders, there was no hood worn in the other Zodiac killings. We don’t know for a FACT that Jack was the Texarkana Phantom. Now, to speculate, it’s possible that Jack had Denny wear a hood for his first murders, much like Jack did for his.
So, while interesting to talk about, the presence of a hood is not definitive proof of anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
C. Talking to the victim's - absolutely JT tactic seen in Texarcana as well.


Other murderers have spoken with their victims. Does not definitively prove a thing. Similar to Jack’s MO, sure. Not proof. Speculation: Jack could have instructed Denny to talk to his victims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
D. BD's jaw being ripped away - tie in to Texarkana where 3rd to the last victim had her jaw ripped away by JT's bullet. This was no coincidence. Also, BD bisection ties into LK. Both of these we have handwriting in it's juvenile stages to police, parents, and media. (My theory that JT got brazen by writing long before Z) Get over any prostitution theory you may have that is Hollywood-----If anything she said no more than yes and required the guys to take care of her not do her.


“This was no coincidence”- could easily be a coincidence. There is no fact presented here.

“BD bisection ties into LK”- possibly. No definitive proof that Jack was either. BD killer could have been LK, true. Not proven, though- that is merely speculation.

Also, I don’t think BD herself was a prostitute, but I do think she represented one to her killer. Hence, the whole “eating feces” and “pubic hair stuffed in the anus” things. That was a murder that was making a statement, in my opinion.

Also, is there any proof that JT was in LA in January, 1947? I thought I'd read that he was in San Diego then. Honestly curious on this point, I don't believe I've seen it addressed one way or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
E. Glasses - ergo the wholes in the side of the hood well spoken about by Hartnell. These wholes are present in the hood Dennis found.


Whomever was behind the hood, whether Jack or Denny, was wearing sunglasses, and that’s a fact. Could have been Jack, wearing shades over his prescription glasses, could have been Denny, wearing clip-ons over empty frames, to hide his eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
F. The calls to the police after the crimes were committed were done by Denny … All I know is that I grew up in LB as a kid and I never seen a phone booth lakeside.


I’ll go with sixtieschick’s description of the area, as I’m not intimately familiar with the terrain. If Denny made the phone calls, as you speculate (I agree with you that he did), it does not rule him out as being at the crime scene. Time written on the car was 6:30, time of the call was 7:40. You can cover a lot of ground in 70 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
G. Southern Drawl reported by Hartnell - Denny was born, raised, and grew up in California not the south.


Accent is easy to copy, especially if you were raised by someone with an accent. Most of the time, I sound as bland as a news reporter. Get a couple drinks in me (or, if I simply need to fake it), I turn pure Kentucky Bluegrass on ya. Interesting thing to talk about, but not definitive proof of a thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
H. Wing Walkers - size 10 1/2 - Height 5'10" - JT's stats, not Denny's.


See response to A. above. Denny under the hood does not rule out Jack at crime scene, possibly as coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
I. The different method of killing "by knife" identical to other crime sprees. JT used different M.O.s so as to make LE think they were dealing with different killers.


Other CONFIRMED Zodiac killings were with a gun. David Faraday- shot. Betty Lou Jensen- shot. Michael Renault- shot. Darlene Ferrin- shot. Paul Stine- shot. That’s a fact. This was a different M.O. for the Zodiac Killings that Zodiac took credit for.

Now, if you want to speculate, we can do that as well. You believe JT was the Texarkana Phantom, right? I do, or at least strongly lean that way. The Texarkana Phantom killings were shootings. Either way, the knife is out of character for known, confirmed-by-Zodiac murders. Everything else is simply speculation.

Also, this is an interesting trick you’re using here- you claim that JT uses different M.O.s for his attacks, and yet elsewhere, you claim that Jack is the B.D. killer because the M.O.s match. While interesting for speculation, that’s not entirely an honest way to look at things, because you can use this technique to tie Jack to… well… pretty much any murder committed during his life, especially if you find a minor detail that connects the two.

It’s like this: “I have PROOF that JT was the Oklahoma City bomber! In one of his letters to the San Francisco Chronicle, Zodiac wrote ‘I hope you enjoy yourselves when I have my BLAST’. (This ties it in to previous crimes.) JT also had knowledge of bomb-making, and bought a bunch of dynamite when he lived in Minnesota! See? It makes perfect sense.”

Now, I don’t believe JT blew up the Murrah building, obviously. I just wanted to make an outrageous example of how this technique- different M.O., some similar detail from previous crime- can be used to tie JT to something unrelated. It makes for good speculation, sometimes fascinating speculation. It proves nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
J. LK - found off Hollywood Blvd, and BD found of Degnan St.


Already covered in response to D.- no proof that JT was LK or BD killer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”NanetteB”
L. Let's not forget Cheri Jo Bates where JT writes about how you may find your daughters----Identical to the way he left BD....Again a tie in to the other crimes.


No proof that Zodiac was actual killer (although interesting speculation). Why did Zodiac not take credit for this murder at Lake Berryessa?

Having said all that, I think there's some very interesting speculation about all these crimes. As I said earlier, I also think it's a mistake to make JT (or anyone else, for that matter) out to be The One And Only Murderer™. Just because a killing occurred in JT's adult life does not make him the prime suspect.

Now, if my facts are incorrect, please feel free to show me where I was wrong. If you disagree with my speculation, that's definitely your right, but I'm a big fan of making sure the narrative fits the facts. You can do a lot when you make the facts fit the narrative.

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Occam's Razor always applies.
Johnny_K

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Posts: 12
Reply with quote  #19 
Oh, because I'm a glutton for punishment, I'll do this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by "NanetteB"
Gotta love that he only appeared to tell me not to take things personally rather than respond to the mounds of evidence we just put in his face.


Responded. I didn't feel too chatty before I had my morning coffee, and then I had to take care of a few other things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "NanetteB"
Respond to the facts presented before you not the crap you decide to sift for the others to see.


Responded. Sifted fats from speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "NanetteB"
I saw the cult thread you just brought up, and you are walking a fine line between being naked, and being gone.


Brought up the cult thread because I live in Texas, and I find it funny that no one mentioned that the former Governor of Texas making the "Hook 'Em, Horns" sign on a victory day was most likely not the effect of a Satanic conspiracy, but rather the effect of, y'know, living in Austin.

And that's kind of my thoughts on some other speculation, hence my signature. I'm a fan of facts, and the simplest explanation- or rather, the one that makes the fewest assumptions- is usually correct. There is a cat in the room with me. Is it possible that someone picked the cat up, carried it in here, and sat it down? Sure, it's possible. It's a lot more likely that the cat walked in here.

That's the approach I'm going to take with the conversation of JT. Is it possible that the exact same person was the Texarkana Phantom, a murderer in Florida, the Lipstick Killer, the Black Dahlia killer, the killer of Cheri Jo Bates, and the Zodiac? Sure, it's possible. Is it likely? I'm skeptical of that.

I'm not saying it's wrong, don't get me wrong. But, in the words of Carl Sagan, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Quote:
Originally Posted by "NanetteB"
Walking a line, I certainly hope that you did not wait too long to receive access to this board????


Three weeks, as a matter of fact. Chose a stupid user name the first time around. Gave me time to read at least a page or two of each and every thread on the board, and figure out stuff I agreed with and stuff with which I disagreed. It's fascinating how this case gets under your skin.

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Johnny_K

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Posts: 12
Reply with quote  #20 
As a matter of fact, I'm a huge fan of science. I'm the type of guy who would get a mathematical symbol tattooed on my body.

And if you're telling me the same person wrote the LK "message on the wall" and the Zodiac letters, you're going to need to really walk me through that one, point-by-point, before I buy it. Like, "testimony in court" point-by-point. I will not accept "trust me, I'm an expert", as I think that's intellectually dishonest.

You ask me to reply to your facts. I did so. Rather than discuss my replies, you choose to go with that? And in a mildly insulting tone, no less? I truly don't understand. Someone saying "I've seen the evidence, and draw a different conclusion than you" is not a personal attack. It's hopefully the beginning of a conversation.

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sixtieschick

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Posts: 246
Reply with quote  #21 

Quote:
NanetteB Today at 11:07 AM         Do you guys really think that I wait around for the next Albert Einstein board member to appear? Do you think I care what you have to say? Do you think that I am here to hear a new theory? If you do, then that is why you create new threads....This message board is setup with all the necessary threads for every related topic. Spread that BS somewhere else sixtieschick. Johnnybegood, no one here who is working this case for "REAL" not play is buying into what your selling....We don't need new theories, nor do we care about what you think. You have obviously come to the wrong place for idle chit chat. Go bug someone else, and leave this investigation in which you have no conscious clue about alone. Or better yet, go see TV's site, or this new one sixtieschick has mentioned, or even Hodel's because I am sure they have it all wrong too. Difference is, they have no lives either, and would welcome the challenge of your great brain. LOL




Nanette, I really do not understand why you are getting so angry and defensive and accusatory. And may I add, downright rude. I have not been rude to you and have shown you nothing but respect, yet I post some comments and ideas in a thread started by a newcomer and you basically accuse me of being a traitor or a troll.

I express an opinion as to why Johnny may have started a new thread and you call my suggestions BS that I am trying to spread. I am not trying to spread any BS.

Then you basically insult all of us by sarcastically calling us Einsteins and saying you could care less what we have to say.

And do you really think it is a bad thing to look at things from a different perspective and totally discourage new discussion on a subject? Seems to me that examining the possible ways Jack may have committed the attacks and if he had anyone else involved in his crimes would be welcomed, not frowned upon. What is the point of having a message board if people can't actually discuss things? Discussion doesn't mean people don't believe Jack was the Zodiac, or that people are saying you or Dennis are wrong about things. We are merely throwing some ideas around; if they lead nowhere, so be it. But we should not get attacked for having an active interest in the case and how the pieces can all fit together.

You got on our cases when we expressed our opinions of catseye's newest claims about Jack avenging Native Americans, more or less telling us to just leave her threads alone if we did not agree with her claims. If you don't like the ideas Johnny has come up with, and the discussion that has followed, you could follow your own advice and simply ignore the thread. That way you don't have get annoyed or waste your time responding to posts in the thread.

As for that site I mentioned in the Donna Lass Reward Poster thread, I made it quite clear that I did not agree with the webmaster's belief that Bruce Davis was the Zodiac, and I most certainly would never advise anyone to adopt that point of view. I was trying to help by pointing out a site that has some good factual information about the Lass case, related documentation, and a webmaster who has been in touch with Donna's sister. I thought that information might be useful to you in your attempts to find out more about the origins of the poster, if the Lass family had received any Zodiac-like communications, etc. Sometimes you have to go places you would rather not if you want information.

I really do not understand why you are painting me as a turncoat or someone with underhanded motives. I have always tried to help when I could, by looking for things on the internet you recalled seeing in the past, or answering a question if I had the answer to it, etc. Sure, we disagree on catseye, and sometimes I can get things wrong or mixed up, but none of that means I am trying to discredit Dennis, you or the board.
sixtieschick

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Posts: 246
Reply with quote  #22 
For those newer people who may not have seen this, here is an informative thread about Denny.

http://denniskaufman.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2501605&highlight=denny
TerryB

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Posts: 925
Reply with quote  #23 
Why should we have to prove anything to JohnnyK, he still hasn't explained how it is that Hartnell said the killer had reddish brown hair, a large belly, was heavy set. That doesn't fit Denny's appearance...period.

Also the killer held a gun on the victims until they were tied up, then he stabbed them, so a gun and rope were used! There's yer gun!

The only reason Denny's name came up in this attach was because of a composite drawing that resembled him coupled with the report of that person described; lurking the area.....that's it. Anything more about him IS speculation...I speculated that he COULD have been running a camera, pure speculation, not proof.

JohnnyK, it seems to me that you get plenty of exercise "pushing your luck".

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TerryB

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Posts: 925
Reply with quote  #24 
I didn't come to this forum, lay an odd egg and demand that the people here prove things to me via a fuzzy theory based on speculation.


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Johnny_K

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Posts: 12
Reply with quote  #25 
Nanette, could you shoot me a link to your PowerPoint? I could unleash my Google-fu on it, but I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Thanks in advance.

Also, I look forward to your link analysis. We might just be talking past each other.

TerryB, you don't have to prove a thing to me. But, if you think about it for a bit, Lake B. doesn't "feel" the same as the other Zodiac killings. Lover's Lane, anonymous, gun. Lover's Lane, anonymous, gun. Lover's Lane, BIG MASK WITH A SYMBOL ANNOUNCING TO THE WORLD WHO I AM, knife. Cab, anonymous, gun. Something was different at Berryessa. I want to know what. OK, that's not totally accurate- I want to know why, and I believe what is a good way to get there.

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Occam's Razor always applies.
sixtieschick

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Posts: 246
Reply with quote  #26 
I decided to look and see just what Dennis had posted about denny and his possible involvement in the Zodiac crimes and what Dennis had to say about Jack and ALA and some ride they took together.

Quote:
        11/18/08 at 05:24 PM                         Subject: Questions for Dennis         Replies: 454         Posted By: dennislkaufman         Views: 54,419 Bruyoc, Denny had just got back from Nam when the Lake Berryessa attack took place, then he returned shortly after the Stine murder.


Quote:
        02/17/08 at 06:36 PM                         Subject: The Denny Thread         Replies: 53         Posted By: dennislkaufman         Views: 3,425 It was Denny that sent a letter to his dad (Jack) from Vietnam, the letter ended with "dad you would love it over here, it is hunting season all year long." Denny also volunteered to do a second term.


Quote:
        02/27/09 at 05:34 AM                         Subject: The DNA results         Replies: 175         Posted By: dennislkaufman         Views: 25,611 In my opinion Jacks accomplice was his oldest biological son Denny. Denny is the one who was seen at Lake Berryessa the day of the stabbing, he is a dead ringer to the Napa composite.


Quote:
        08/11/09 at 02:57 PM                         Subject: Richard Larsen         Replies: 161         Posted By: dennislkaufman         Views: 12,705 Anyone who saw the documentary seen and heard with their own mouth and ears that Rick said that Jack and Denny killed a man in a cabin. Keep talking Rick you make a fool of yourself everytime you open your mouth.


Quote:
        03/04/08 at 11:08 PM                         Subject: listen allens dna was tested in 2007 no match         Replies: 35         Posted By: dennislkaufman         Views: 1,227 Hello Rick and welcome to the board. I believe that phone call to police after the attack at Lake Berryessa was made by Jack's biological son "Denny" That call was taken by officer Dave Slait, he described the voice as be from a younger man. Denny also matches the Napa composite of Zodiac.


Regrading Jack, ALA and the ride, Dennis and his brother Chuck posted in this thread http://denniskaufman.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2510970&highlight=teacher+ride

Quote:
dennislkaufman Avatar / Picture Moderator Registered: 10/17/07 Posts: 505                 02/20/08 at 07:37 PM                 #1 I would like to welcome my younger brother Charles, (ChuckyWucky) he is Jacks biological son. Charles was present the night his dad talked about giving Arther Allen a ride home from Lake Berryessa.


Quote:
ChuckyWucky Registered: 02/19/08 Posts: 5                 02/21/08 at 12:10 AM                 #2 Thank you for the warm welcome Dennis. About the night that my dad revealed that he knew lee allen: I was doing something on the computer at the time, and I heard my dad say "That school teacher guy" Then My ears tuned in to the conversation. He said he gave Lee Allen a ride and then found out who he was, and My dads words were "That was too close for comfort for me" Meaning that he was uncomfortable being that close contact with the main suspect at the time. When Dennis first suspected my dad of being zodiac, I could tell my dad was a little nervous about it. He said to me: "You dont beleive I am Zodiac do you?" I answered to Him "No" and he said "Ok good" He definately did not want me to know that he was Zodiac, and made an extra effort to keep it from me. My dad told me one time that he never heard of the Zodiac killer before.


So, Jack said HE gave the ride to ALA, not that ALA gave Jack a ride. So it seems possible that JAck and Denny did leave Lake Berryessa together and then drove to Napa where Denny placed the call. Jack would not have had to have been left behind.
Ashlee

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Posts: 26
Reply with quote  #27 
Not to start a war...but this is from the crimelibrary.com site, which does not claim any particular person as Zodiac.

Quote:
Cecelia Ann Shepard and Bryan Calvin Hartnell, two college students who had also made a spontaneous trip from Angwin, were picnicking at Twin Oak Ridge, a peninsula on the western shore of the lake, at twilight when they were approached by a man later described as 5'8" to 6' tall, dark-haired, and heavyset, wearing a dark jacket and dark clothing that seemed sloppy or dishevelled.


Quote:
The hood was well sewn, black, and had a bib that fell almost to the man's waistline. Embroidered on it was the crossed-circle design that had appeared in the 3-Part Cryptogram and its cover letters and would serve as the Zodiac's signature in most of his letters to come.

Holes had been cut for the eyes and mouth, and though clip-on sunglasses had been added to further protect the killer's identity, Hartnell caught a glimpse of greasy brownish hair through the holes in the mask.


Quote:
Hartnell, who survived the attack, said that the man's voice was unremarkable, sounding neither educated nor illiterate, and though Hartnell could not detect an accent, he said the killer did have a slight lilt or drawl to his voice.
(does not specify that it was actually Southern - which IMO is an accent.)

Again, I am not trying to start a war, but we can see how there is so much information out there regarding the "facts" that is can easily be seen that it is next to impossible to know what is true and what is not.

I also happen to agree that something about the Lake B attack is just somehow....off...at least compared to the rest of the known Zodiac attacks.

Feel free to discuss, but I would appreciate if people would refrain from personal attacks against my intelligence and general inconsideration.
sixtieschick

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Posts: 246
Reply with quote  #28 
Yes, there is a lot of information out there, and sometimes some contradicts, or seems to contradict other information. Bryan's description that his attacker had dark hair could be 100% correct, or it is possible that Zodiac (Jack, Denny?) was sweating under the hood, and that would make the hair look darker. I know that some officer says Cecelia gave him a brief description of the attacker before they took away in the ambulance. I will see if I can locate where i read or saw that.

sixtieschick

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Posts: 246
Reply with quote  #29 
The kids who observed Zodiac in San Francisco were the ones who said he had reddish brown hair, not Bryan. Bryan said that the attacker had dark brown greasy hair, the three girls who saw the strange man watching them and helped with the composite that looks like Denny said the man had dark brown or black hair.

I can't find the info Cecelia gave at the scene. I will watch the Lake Berryessa segment again of Fincher's Zodiac Director's cut sometime today and paraphrase what the officer says Cecelia told him about what the attacker looked like.

I just rewatched the video of Officer Collins relating what Cecelia told him. She said the attacker had brown hair that hung over his forehead and was showing through the eye holes of the mask. She said he had dark glasses on under the hood, was 5'10" or so, and was overweight or bulky looking. She specified that his jacket was bulky and estimated his weight to be around 190 pounds.

Not sure where that all leaves us, as Zodiac/Jack did write that he looked different when he did his "thing." So did he change his appearance from attack to attack? Are the witness reports unreliable?

TerryB

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Posts: 925
Reply with quote  #30 
I go by the transcript of the police interview of Hartnell.

It was a daylight attack, so a hood would conceal the killers face.

Denny may have been there since he's a close match to the composite but he is not a close match to the actual attacker, they may have been there together but so far not much else supports that possibility.

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