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teegr

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Posts: 25
Reply with quote  #76 
>>RE rrand: Back to the Death Certificate. If I'm reading the cert >>correctly, "Cardio Respiratory Arrest" is stated as the cause for >>Dennis's mother to go into a coma. She didn't die until a year >>later. Is it possible Jack could have caused her to go into Cardio >>Respiratory Arrest?

I might be able to help you understand the certificate. First..as a RN when I read the certificate...I did not immediately think this was anything other than just what it says. There are descriptions of the time each diagnosis and "time interval" between injury and death.

The word "injury" does not imply any crime for one thing. It is a medical term. For instance...if I had a stroke today...the scans would later show an "injury" in the area of the stroke. Same thing with heart attacks etc. A person can have an "injury" after an untoward event after a surgery.

It says time interval between injury and death on the line of

CardioPulmonary Arrest is minutes. Reported to coroner NO

Anoxic Brain injury interval is 7 days biopsy performed NO
Respiratory Failure " 7 days autopsy performed YES
Automimmune Cholangitis 1 year Used in determining cause NO

As a professional...I would read this certificate as...this woman had a chronic autoimmune disorder but not necessarily contributing to the immediate cause of death

She had a respiratory failure 7 days before death...cause not determined..but not clearly a crime or reported to the coroner,

She had an anoxic brain injury (lack of oxygen to brain tissue) secondary to the respiratory failure which pretty much is common result of a respiratory failure. This would explain a coma.

And minutes before death she she died of cardiopulmonary arrest (heart-lung).

Okay...none of this is suspicious really to most professional medical people or law enforcement.

Per DK's documentation on site he states he took his mother to the hospital because she had a surgical wound (amputation I beleive) that was bleeding or seeping. I believe the concern was infection. http://thezodiackiller.digitalzones.com/momz%20death.jpg

She was clearly a sick woman. If recent surgical discharged patient..she was clearly at a lot of risk.
http://thezodiackiller.digitalzones.com/momz%20death.jpg Amputations are commonly done on diabetic or peripheral artery disease patients. Add a autoimmune disorder of some time...and she was very much at risk for a respiratory arrest...which could lead to all of the events resulting in her death.

Or she could have been helped into the respiratory arrest leading to the coma. It's unclear by DK letters about what happened exactly what he is suggesting. It seems more logical...and COMMON that he disagreed with the plan to take her off life support and disagreement with the family really affected his reasoning. All I know is this woman didn't need too much help from anyone to get into a downward spiral that resulted in respiratory arrest. She was ill enough to have had an amputation..and she was ill enough for the hospital to keep her for treatment of the infection post surgical discharge.

Of all the evidence on this site...the death certificate and his letters describing the events is the thing that made me think he was a greiving man that just had suspicions. HE tends to do his rather good argument that his step-dad is the Zodiac a disservice by trying to argue the point. But then again...if I was him...I am sure I'd be trying to prove I was right. I think he has a better chance of proving it by not going to far down the road concerning his mothers death. She was a very ill woman no doubt before she died.

At the very least she had a diagnosed autoimmune cholangitis of at least a year. Here is some basic info below about this illness. Hope this helps folks realize the interesting thing about this case is the OTHER evidence. Unlikely it will ever be accepted JK killed DK's mom.

# Primary biliary cirrhosis (a rare condition where the immune system inappropriately attacks and destroys the bile ducts causing liver failure).
# Sclerosing cholangitis (scarring and narrowing of the bile ducts inside and outside of the liver causing the backup of bile in the liver which can lead to liver failure).


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Karma

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Reply with quote  #77 
In response to Teegr, just because a death certificate says or indicates natural causes, doesn't mean it's accurate.

Secondly, it may be irrelevant to everyone else, but if I were Dennis it would be very relevant to me and therefore part of my collection of "evidence" against Jack.

There is no burden of proof upon Dennis. Dennis is merely a guy telling what he knows about Jack so that if Jack is Z, it can be determined.

Why should we tell Dennis to cherry pick what WE think is pertinent and leave out what he finds to be important?

Personally I want to know everything I can about Jack at this point.

I can't stress enough that people need to stop obsessing about Dennis and actually take a hard look at Jack.



As I've stated in another thread. My grandparents were both "helped along" while they were dying a slow and painful death due to cancer. But of course since they were under treatment by a physician for cancer, there was no autopsy and their death certificates both list cancer as the CAUSE of death, when in fact that's not actually 100% accurate.



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rrand

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Reply with quote  #78 
Teegr, are you saying the list of causes goes in reverse chronological order? That sounds like what you are saying. And I think I see it now. Thanks for the input. Please ignore my argument.
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I am not 'rand' from that other site nor have I ever heard of him.
teegr

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Posts: 25
Reply with quote  #79 
>>Teegr, are you saying the list of causes goes in reverse >>chronological order? That sounds like what you are saying. And I >>think I see it now. Thanks for the input. Please ignore my >>argument.

rrand...well it's not exactly reverse...it's just how medical documentation goes...for instance...A doctor (or nurses) documentation would start with a S.O.A.P. type approach. Subjective: complaint (what the patient is complaining about) Objective: What the doctor can see easily by looking. Assessment: His assessment of the information he has at that particular moment.
P: Plan What is recommended be done to prove or disprove his suspicions during said assessment.

The medical examiner would follow a very similar approach for documentation.

Subjective: Patient is dead and it is declared by initial documentation patient stopped breathing and heart stopped = Cardiopulmonary Arrest

Objective: Patient is dead otherwise patient wouldn't be on table.=anoxic brain injury. Ok what caused the anoxic brain injury (trauma, infection, blood clot, or the less obvious...respiratory failure (based on documentation no doubt). Alot of things could cause respiratory failure (as you put in your argument)...but obviously she was sick enough and had a history of something that the doctors didn't call the police when she went into resp failure 7 days before her death.

Assessment: Lets see...is there any immediate observation patient would stop breathing and heart stop, say gross trauma like patient chest was crushed? NO...OK..is there anything else obvious? NO..Lets look at the patients history since patient died in hospital? Is it possible for this patient to have gone into respiratory failure? I don't know...I wasn't there...but it wouldn't have been completely out of consideration. If, for example, in the autopsy anything looked unusual in the lungs or heart..say a huge blood clot...then no doubt it would be on the certificate under the cardiopulmonary arrest line.

I don't know if that explains a little about how documentation goes. The terminology is hard for folks to understand for sure.

Not all patients get autopsy...but in this case she was post surgical and being treated for infection...soooooo use your own imagination.


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teegr

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Reply with quote  #80 
Re Karma's post "In response to Teegr, just because a death certificate says or indicates natural causes, doesn't mean it's accurate.

Your 100% correct...if there is no autopsy you could argue that it was not a natural death.

Even if there is an autopsy...it could be wrong. I think that is clear by watching court-tv and dateline. LOL

I did say...if it was my mother...I'd be asking questions too if I thought my father was a killer.

What I was trying to say is...that terminology is confusing. There is Medical and there is Legal. That's what lawyers are for... ;-)

I just happen to see the death certificate and well...you can read the earlier post. I thought it might help answer a few questions as far as whether this could ever be put onto the list of victims killed. I do think DK has much better argument with the other evidence.

As far as your grandparents...I'm sorry for your loss. All I can say is I have been there on both sides of the fence. It is not for this board to delve into the ethics of it all. I just know with 30+ years experience I obviously see things differently than I did 30 years ago. ;-)






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"I've planted Indian hawthorns in my yard to repel Bengal tigers. So far, it's working."

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Karma

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Reply with quote  #81 
Yeah, I do see now that it does say there was an autopsy but then it says used to determine cause of death, no.

So I find that interesting.


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mrsweeza

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Reply with quote  #82 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrand
[EDIT:
These findings of Dr. Gualdrapa was seconded by the PNP Crime Laboratory medico-legal Dr. Angel Cordero, who conducted a separate autopsy on the charred body of the fire victim stressing that the cause of death is cardio respiratory arrest due to shock due to traumatic asphyxia and external application of stimulus.

“Because of these circumstances, we are 100 percent sure that our daughter was killed, and the culprit should be put in jail”, Mary Jean stressed.


The key there is TRAUMATIC axphixia
bababijan

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Posts: 64
Reply with quote  #83 
A thread about "exposing Tom Voigt" is the best place to go over several issues regarding Tom's insecurities caused by failing to make valuable contributions to this unsolved Zodiac case.

Tom's lone-nut stand had produced no viable suspect, dead or alive, through out years thus far. To compensate for his shortcomings, he picks on folks who have developed Zodiac suspects under different circumstances.

In doing Z search to write my post titled, "Did Zodiac kill Allen," I found information posted by Dennis Kaufman about Jack Tarrance very useful. After I posted my findings at Tom's message board, within a year, my post had about 9000 hits. Of course, by that time, I was long gone from his mb but Tom had refused to delete all my posts based upon my agreement with him that my posts stay at his message board as long as I was allowed to post there.

After I complained to him about it, some of my posts were deleted but not all of them. He did have my Allen's post deleted finally.

He picks on Dennis as being a con job, but he does not mind to have a post in his mb about the possibility of Tarrance and Allen being murdered by Zodiac on August 26 of different years. For those who are not familiar with my Zodiac theory, suffice it to say that, I consider Zodiac as a diabolical global entity but not a lone gun nut.

Tom wants to have it any which way he can as long as he can make a few dollars from it. This is not the way to go to be accepted as a crusader for the truth.

As it is, Tom is in no position to pick on anyone, specially, on Dennis.

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cruz

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Posts: 45
Reply with quote  #84 
WOW, both suspects die on the same day of the same month??

hmmm......interesting.
teegr

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Posts: 25
Reply with quote  #85 
RE: Karma Yeah, I do see now that it does say there was an autopsy but then it says used to determine cause of death, no.

So I find that interesting.

I think there is a standard protocol on when a medical Examiner refers a death to a coronor (based on inconsistent assessment of the physical condition of the body as compared to a deceased patient sent directly from a hosptial) Also...unusual outcome for the admitting patients diagnosis would be a to flag to have the medical examiner check patient vs charting.

No doubt the reason it has a box on the form asking "was autopsy used in determining death" that was checked NO...was her medical history and was a common outcome. For instances if they had found petichiae in the whites of her eyes...or inside the the internal neck, etc...they would be wondering if this was an expected outcome of a intubation trauma or could it have been a CPR related injury, or if not...maybe from an external sophication. At that point they would have an argument to refer to the coroner. Also family member speaking up and saying patient was afraid she would be killed..should have brought her autopsy to the coroner's attention. Sooo looks like nothing was suspicious enough to prompt a legal assessment for a manner of death. If DK gets a positive result from the FBI on all this other evidence...he will probably have a fairly easy time by then in getting the FBI to exhume her body for assessment of foul play. But until then...I think he'd had a real hard time getting law enforcement to investigate his mothers death based on the death certificate as recorded. It might help him feel better to be able to prove that his steddad killed his mother...but in court they lawyer would probably just argue JT was just helping he avoid suffering...and the whole family would then be suspects in helping...It would just be better to let his energies find all he can to prove his case for the Zodiac...I think that it where the case will be solved.

Hang in there DK..clearly there is a reason your the one that can prove it...if he is guilty.

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"I've planted Indian hawthorns in my yard to repel Bengal tigers. So far, it's working."

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cruz

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Posts: 45
Reply with quote  #86 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wd707
Ok this is my first time posting here. People might call me a troll or whatever but that's not what I am. I see both sides of the field in the realm of zodiac boards...


First a lot of things I have saw (mostly on tom's board) have made it look like dennis is a fake or a fraud. I have also seen other stuff that I think dennis adds that doesn't add up to his dad being the zodiac. Not saying that I think dennis is a fraud but I think even if he is right, he doctors up a few things, like the radian his book, and his emails to different people and other little things.

But at the same time I thought toms board is VERY VERY good great information easy to find a lot of people talking about the case, very knowledgable. But recently I have noticed tom gets very picky and starts wanting to run the board with power. That's the one thing I dont like about tom's board. Apparently I was kicked off his board because of this board.. I went into the chat room and asked tom (because I was unaware) I asked him about him going to jail or whatever because I noticed it on a site (this one) and immidiately I was banned. Mind you I been on that board for about 2 or so years, no problems no nothing. I email him to straigten things out, because I wanted him to clear his name if he was wrong. Yet he calls me a problem maker and says that I starting rumors?


I don't know what to say, I miss that board because a few of those guys are very good suspects but I can't see the board because I'm banned.


Any ways I look forward to this board and hopefully there will be a lot more traffic since I'm use to tom's board. The reason I'm interested in this case is because not only did I grow up in vallejo but my best friends aunt was killed by the zodiac (darlene) so hopefully we figure something out.


WOAH. So your best friend's mother could be Pam Huckaby or Linda?
wd707

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Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #87 
My best friends mom is pam and darlenes sister.. She was only like 13 at the time... I grew up in vallejo also so i have a lot of interest in the case because of it
LtColumbo

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Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #88 
I am stunned to see the level of acrimony that exists between rival factions of Zodiac hunters. It makes the meeting of warring tribes of pygmy cannibals look like a softball game at a church picnic! All this is very reminiscent of the counter-productive jealosy that existed between the various law enforcement agencies back in the '70's.

Far be it from me to play Henry Kissinger. It is, after all, grand theater. Hunting Zodiac hasn't been this interesting since Mr. Penn managed to position himself as detective and suspect... at the same time! Z (if still alive) must be loving it. By all means, let us continue wasting our dwindling, time, considerable intellects and invauable energies thrusting lances at each other.

One caveat, though. We just might wake up one day and discover that while we were busy throwing stones at eachother from our respective glass houses some bright young slueth has solved the case!

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cruz

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Posts: 45
Reply with quote  #89 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wd707
My best friends mom is pam and darlenes sister.. She was only like 13 at the time... I grew up in vallejo also so i have a lot of interest in the case because of it


That's amazing. Do you talk to her about Z? She deffinatley thinks Z is/was stalking her for quite a while. She used to say that crypotgrams, coffins, bulletholes, family pictures end up at her doorstep. She even said one time that Z came into her house and knocked her out cold. Sorry, but could you talk to her for us? I also think someone is keeping the case alive through her.
dennislkaufman

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Reply with quote  #90 
Tom Voigt is know spreading rumors that I am in jail, well Tom if I happen to see you it won't be a rumor anymore. Your being exposed day by day you little punk!
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